Отправлено: 12.09.11 19:53. Заголовок: пароходы РАК

Доброе время суток, уважаемое сообщество.
Пару недель назад запостил в жежешечке любительский материал по пароходам Российско-американской компании http://gloky-koozdr.livejournal.com/2228.html#cutid1 Многим наверное материал покажется детским лепетом, но всё же очень хочется глубже копнуть тему. Особенно интересуют закупленные в САСШ винтовые суда(Император Александр II, Великий князь Константин), - они случаем в сиб. флотилию не вошли потом? А также загадочный железный пароход разрушенный союзниками на стапеле в Аяне. Может быть ув. AvM прольёт свет?

 Отправлено: 06.04.12 22:39. Заголовок: Niles' national ..

Niles' national register, Band 75 , 1849

Russian America—Our Pacific Settlements:— Russian America, the only part of our continent held by the Sclavonic race has to our Republic been almost an unknown land. Still an American is there, Mr. Moore, whose employment is to instruct,lhe natives born of Russian parents, how to build steam engines, and steam vessels for that far distant coast. This steam voyaging will connect them with Oregon, and California, and thence by our new line with Panama, and thence again by the present existing line with Valparaiso in Chili. The western coast of America, both North and South, will then have a continuous line of steamers from near Behring's Straits down to near Cape Horn! though the eastern coast of our continent has no such continuous line by steam.

"Westward the star of Empire Jaks its way j" and the West coast of America is destined to witness mighty things, overlooking the virgin Pacific to China, Japan, Siberia, ani the Australian shores beyond. A voyager entering the port of Archangel found there the following mercantile fleet. It speaks of life, of energy, and the speed of civilization:

1. Helen 350 tons.
2. Alexander 300
3. Sitka 300
4. Bichal 200
5. Constantino 200
6. Ochotsk 150
7. Chii-hakoff 150
8. Polypheme 150
9. Promysle 80 tons.
10. Morischold 80
11. Quapak 80
12.Nicolas , steamer 60 horse power.
13. Moore , steamer, 7 horse do.
14 & 15. Two other small steamers.

This would do credit to many a proud port in Europe or the United States. We must learn more about that land. Her fleet is occupied almost exclusively on those northern shores—above the famous 54 40. running to the Aleutian Isles, In the Kurile Isles which reach to Japan, to Kamschatka, and to Ochotsk in Siberia, except an occasional trip to Oregon for flour, or to the Sandwich Islands for sugar and other supplies.

Sir George Simpson, Governor of the great northern British portion of our continent, speaks of the establishment of Mr. Moore, the American in the employ of Russia, in terms of high commendation; the entire work of an engine, the casting, forging and finishing being finely done. "He is a man of superior ingenuity, and has taught five or six natives to do the work almost as well as himself."

New Archangel, the capital of Russian America, i» shoaled on the Island of Sitka, which is separated from the main land by a narrow arm of the sea. Its population is about 1500, besides two Indian suburban villages. Smaller posts are siationcd at many points along the coast all the way to the peninsula of Alaska, and thence even along the chain of Aleutian Islands, which form the natural stepping stones to Siberia. Recently some posts hare been formed on Bshrmg's Straits! to protect the fur trade on the east aide from the Schuklchi. These are the d.veilers on the western side, and once a year at the great fair at Ottroj-noye in S.beria, they purchase tobacco and other articles, and with these they are powerful competitors, every summer, with the Russian company, among the extreme northwestern Indians of ojr continent.

 Отправлено: 07.04.12 10:26. Заголовок: ..

 Отправлено: 19.04.12 10:49. Заголовок: De Bow's review,..

цитата:

De Bow's review, Band 8 5. SHIP BUILDING, AC., IN NEW YORK. Ship Building During The Year 1849.— Messrs. Smith and Dimon have launched one clipper ship of 600 tons, which is now nearly ready for sea. She has not yet received a name, but belongs to a company at St. Petersburg.

I think she could be NIKOLAY I (1850) USA 297 89/95bm ?

 Отправлено: 12.05.12 09:20. Заголовок: AvM спасибо огромное..

AvM спасибо огромное!!! Thank you very much!

AvM пишет:

цитата:

13. Moore , steamer, 7 horse do. 14 & 15. Two other small steamers.

Oh sh... "two other small steamers"?! Challenging information.
AvM пишет:
"Fideliter ... Admitted as former Russian Fideliter by Treaty of 20.6.1867,`
Another one.

By the way, Constantine is rather misty vessel. There is no information about builder(yard) in any register. All is known that she was built on Clyde in Newcastle, but there wasn't any ship launched named "Constantine" from 1854 to 1856 on any yard. And that "Constantine" is not existed in lloyd registers (in american only). As she was purchased in UK during Crimean war, I suppose that she was launched with fake name for the fake customer but I didn't recognized yet her first name.

AvM пишет:

цитата:

think she could be NIKOLAY I (1850) USA 297 89/95bm ?

Exactly

 Отправлено: 12.05.12 14:31. Заголовок: Глокий Куздр пишет: ..

Глокий Куздр пишет:

цитата:

AvM пишет: "Fideliter ... Admitted as former Russian Fideliter by Treaty of 20.6.1867,` Another one.

Fideliter was not owned by Russian-American Company

Глокий Куздр пишет:

цитата:

All is known that she was built on Clyde in Newcastle, but there wasn't any ship launched named "Constantine" from 1854 to 1856 on any yard.

Clyde is a river in Scotland . There are such shipbuilding cities as Glasgow, Port Glasgow, Greenock.
Newcastle is a town in England, lying on the river Tyne. The r are South Shields and North Shields on Tyne estuary.
Where have any information she was built on Clyde?

Глокий Куздр пишет:

цитата:

And that "Constantine" is not existed in lloyd registers (in american only).

Lloyd's of that ere did not listed all ships , even not all English vessels.
Nearly all are listed in "Merchant Navy List", published since 1850, there are also no any Constantine

Глокий Куздр пишет:

цитата:

As she was purchased in UK during Crimean war, I suppose that she was launched with fake name for the fake customer but I didn't recognized yet her first name.

I do not believe Russia was able to buy any vessels during the War. If she was built in 1854 as most of the sources listed , she could be purchased in 1856 , ie not directly built for Russian-American Company.

 Отправлено: 12.05.12 14:44. Заголовок: American Lloyd's..

American Lloyd's Register of American and Foreign Shipping 1881
Record of American and Foreign Shipping 1881

Constantine built 10.1854 Newcastle, England

 Отправлено: 12.05.12 18:57. Заголовок: AvM пишет: Newcastl..

AvM пишет:

цитата:

Newcastle is a town in England, lying on the river Tyne.

Sorry, I mean Tyne of course, not Clyde.

AvM пишет:

цитата:

I do not believe Russia was able to buy any vessels during the War. If she was built in 1854 as most of the sources listed , she could be purchased in 1856 , ie not directly built for Russian-American Company.

Yes, it looks like it was impossible to by a vessel in UK, but in reports of RAC said "was built for company". So, there are two ways: she was just purchased, or she was ordered in 1854 through Hamburg department of RAC and person affiliated to it (by some fake customer) and rised RAC flag only in 1856 (but war in that moment still continued)

AvM пишет:

цитата:

American Lloyd's Register of American and Foreign Shipping 1881

Yes, that is a register I told about. Constantine is traced in this US registers from 1870.

 Отправлено: 12.05.12 20:41. Заголовок: Глокий Куздр пишет: ..

Глокий Куздр пишет:

цитата:

Yes, it looks like it was impossible to by a vessel in UK, but in reports of RAC said "was built for company". So, there are two ways: she was just purchased, or she was ordered in 1854 through Hamburg department of RAC and person affiliated to it (by some fake customer) and rised RAC flag only in 1856 (but war in that moment still continued)

There was in England and especially in allied navies (France, Italian navies) lack of transportship , especially steam, so I do not believe that was not possible to order any vessels in England in 1854, perhaps in 1853. I have asked some best specialists from UK, but till now she was not traced.

 Отправлено: 12.05.12 21:04. Заголовок: AvM пишет: I have ..

AvM пишет:

цитата:

I have asked some best specialists from UK, but till now she was not traced.

I had an idea to list all tyne-built iron screwers in 1854-65, and try to trace through registers few of them, wich probaly had become the Constantine in 1856 but... its such a great job. Can't make myself start

 Отправлено: 12.05.12 23:03. Заголовок: There are not yard l..

There are not yard lists of all Tyne iron builders of that time :(

 Отправлено: 13.05.12 16:05. Заголовок: In Russkoe Sudokhods..

In Russkoe Sudokhodstvo

Hamburg steamer IDA was chartered by Russian American Company and left Kronstadt 22.06.1856 (old style) for Sitka.

IDA
1856 Toward, Newcastle
141 CL 161x24.2x14.10 hamburgian foots
70nhp
16.2.1856 cert. Johann Friedrich Renatus Heinrich Sturm, Hamburg
1856 Hamburg-St.Petresburg
1856 London -Sitka-
?? 1860 served in Russia

Perhaps: BPP lists & LRS 1856

Ida iron screw bark rigged
1856 Newcastle
637grt 509nrt 186.8x26.6x15.9
70nhp
1856 reg London for Wm. Nicholas de Mattos listed 57 - 59
LRS not listed 1857

 Отправлено: 13.05.12 16:33. Заголовок: AvM пишет: Hamburg ..

AvM пишет:

цитата:

Hamburg steamer IDA was chartered and left Kronstadt 22.06.1856 (old style)

Bingo!
In American register Constantine is brig rigged, but Ida, I suppose, is the only candidate to be the Constantine.
She was built on Palmer's shipyard, so it is a good start point for further researh

Thank you again!

 Отправлено: 13.05.12 18:08. Заголовок: I do not really beli..

I do not really believe :(
No any data are same !

 Отправлено: 14.05.12 08:49. Заголовок: AvM пишет: I do not..

AvM пишет:

цитата:

I do not really believe :( No any data are same !

Data for Constantine in the same Am. reg. but for different years are also not same (for example: 1870 displ-320 t. 1872 - 450 t.)

By the way, I made smth like a list of Tyne built ships, wich may be the Const.

Builder-year-ship (sail, paddle, wooden, and also all obviosly "not-Constantines" are canceled from list from Boutland to Mitchell, but Palmer, Smith, and Toward not checked yet):

цитата:

WM Boutland, Bill Quay (1818 - 1879) 1853 George 1854 Crimea no in Lloyd 1854 Glenaen - no in lloyd Coutts & Parkinson, Willington Quay (1850 - 1854) 1853 Sorrento no in lloyd 1854 Tynemouth no in lloyd 1855 Queen Victoria no in lloyd D / H Andrew Leslie, Hebburn (1854 - 1885) (iron sh. builder) 1855 Tyne 1856 Batchiska &!! No in lloyd Charles Mitchell & Co, Lo3 1854 Will o' the Wisp no in lloyd 3 masts 1854 Cagliari no in lloyd 3 masts 1854 Earl of Durham screw iron 554 t (1858 lloyd) 1854 Hetton no in lloyd 1854 Hesperus no in lloyd boucht by admirality 1855 Killingworth screw iron 607 t (lloyd 1858) 1855 Jackal no in lloyd 3 masts 1855 Albert no in lloyd sistership of Montagu 3 masts 1855 Montagu no in lloyd sistership of albert 3 masts 1855 Balder no in lloyd 1856 Pollux screw iron 369 t 3 masts 1856 General Codrington screw iron 460 t (1858 lloyd) 3 masts 1856 George Robert no in lloyd 1856 St George srew iron 458 t owner mitchell newcastl - hamburg 1856 Eupatoria no in lloyd 3 masts 1856 Paris screw iron 413 t (1858 lloyd) 2 mast 1856 Luna paris – sistership 2 mast 1856 Helios iron screw 470 t. master holt 70 hp hamburg (lloyd 1857-1859) 3 masts (first name COMET) 1856 Hambourg screw iron 410 75 hp havre france paris, luna – sisterhips 2 mast 1856 Oder no in lloyd 1856 Vistula no in lloyd 1856 Otteren no in lloyd 1856 Mutlah no in lloyd 1856 Planet no in lloyd Palmer Brothers & Co, Jarrow (1852 - 1865) 10 1854 Marley Hill 11 1854 Pioneer 12 1854 Ross D Mangles 13 1854 Nicholas Wood 14 1854 Isabella Croll 15 1854 Volunteer 17 1855 Dragon (TT) D / H 18 1854 Dragon 19 1854 Cochrane 20 1854 Alice 21 1855 Samuel Laing 22 1854 Champion 23 1854 Black Boy 25 1855 Stella 26 1855 Whitley Park 27 1855 Black Sea 28 1855 Normanby 29 1855 Rosedale 30 1855 Warrior 31 1855 Elba 32 1855 George Hawkins 33 1855 Brenda 34 1855 Hutton Chaytor 35 1856 Minna 36 1855 Napoleon (TT) D / H 37 1855 Sylph (TT) D / H 38 1855 Earsdon 39 1855 Sardinian 40 1855 Allies 41 1855 Brigadier 42 1856 Tyne 43 1856 Marmora 44 1856 Punch 45 1856 Russian D / H 46 1856 Ida 47 1856 St Petersburg D / H 48 1856 Stronstadt 49 1856 Brighton 50 1856 Moscow D / H 51 1856 Alfred (TT) D / H 52 1856 Terror Thomas & William Smith, Limekilns Shore, North Shields (1845 - 1890) 1 1854 Zingari D / H 2 1854 Zouave 1855 Victoria 1855 Gitana D / H 1855 Chasseur 1855 Despatch 1855 Eugenie 1856 Beirout 1856 Enterprize 1856 Sepoy D / H / P 1856 Erne D / H / P 1856 Spider D / H / P 1856 Lively D / H / P 1856 Surley D / H / P 1856 Swan D / H / P 1856 Watchful D / H 1856 Woodcock D / H 1856 Gosforth Toward, St Peter's, Newcastle (1850 - 1855) (iron paddlers) 1853 Queen of the Isles 1854 Cumbria 1854 Arbutus

Huge list (and obviosly not complete), really?

Iron two-masted screwers of Mitchell (Paris, Luna, Hamburg) looks like a good candidates (if Ida is not what we are looking for).
a. Most of Mitchell iron screwers of that period were built for russian and Hamburg customers (just few for France and UK)
b. Mitchell had plant in St. Petersburg.
c. Mitchell (along with Palmer) - the best iron screwers builder of the 1850s.

I don't really believe that Constantine was built on one of the small yards. I suppose it was Mitchell or Palmer (Ida or maybe Luna (or her sisterships)

 Отправлено: 14.05.12 12:11. Заголовок: Tyne could by also M..

Tyne could by also Marshall, which you have not on lists, and some more
from South and Nort Shields.

 Отправлено: 17.05.12 08:10. Заголовок: AvM пишет: Tyne cou..

AvM пишет:

цитата:

Tyne could by also Marshall, which you have not on lists, and some more from South and Nort Shields.

I used that resource: http://www.tynebuiltships.co.uk/Shipbuilders.html
I listed all yards on Tyne existed in 1853-1856, and canceled from the list some of them which didn't built iron and screw vessels.
Marshal was also cancelled, becouse his screwers were not "Constantine's" (due to registers, that site, etc)

 Отправлено: 18.05.12 00:50. Заголовок: The list are far to ..

The list are far to be complete

T.D Marshall for example lack: 1858 Russian steamer (paddle) DUZHIY

(from memory)

 Отправлено: 18.05.12 12:07. Заголовок: AvM пишет: The list..

AvM пишет:

цитата:

The list are far to be complete

Obviosly yes, it is
Anyway, the list is too huge. I think it nearly impossimble to find "Constantine" without russian sources of RAC.

 Отправлено: 18.05.12 18:29. Заголовок: I have for example n..

I have for example not in these lists

Baron von Humboldt iron screw 2 mast schooner
1854 T.D.Marshall, South Shields
334grt 239nrt 136.4x25.0x12.9ft
60 nhp
7.10.1854 reg Newcastle
22.12.54 reg London for William S. Andrews
Used in Crimean War Operations to built a Balaklava railroad
Lady Alice, Lambton, screw-steamer, 511 tons, 90-horse power;
Great Northern, ditto, 578 tons, 90-horse;
Earl of Durham, ditto, 554 tons., 9P-horse;
Baron von Humboldt, ditto, 420 tons, 60horse;
Hesperus, ditto, 800 tons, 150-horse;
Prince of Wales, ditto, 627 tons, 120-horse;
Levant, paddle-steamer, 694 tons, 500-horse;
Wildfire, clipper sailing ship, 457 tons;
Mohawk, ditto, 850 tons.
1855 in Navy Lists
1857 listed as owned by "The Crown"
BUFFALO (ex-Baron von Humboldt) Iron screw storeship, 440bm, 137 × -ft. Txfrom Treasury Dept 5.9.1855 and renamed .
1868 to Victualing Dept.
1.1.1888 sold

 Отправлено: 18.05.12 19:06. Заголовок: San Joaquin Republi..

San Joaquin Republican, published as Weekly San Joaquin Republican; Date: 02-21-1857; Volume: 3; Issue: 14; Page: [2]; Location: Stockton, California

The hamburg Steamer Ida, Capt. Oxterdunger, arrived at San Francisco from Hamburg, on the 17th inst, via Montevideo and Valparaiso
She is for Sitka , with stores for Russian territiores.

 Отправлено: 18.05.12 21:48. Заголовок: Daily News (London, ..

Daily News (London, England), Tuesday, September 4, 1855; Issue 2900.

reported about steamer Constantine which on 1st September arrived from Amsterdam to Hamburg
officially with sugar (but de facto with 1500,000lbs of lead) , evidently smuggling contraband for Russia.

 Отправлено: 18.05.12 22:04. Заголовок: Daily News (London, ..

Daily News (London, England), Tuesday, September 4, 1855; Issue 2900.

reported about steamer Constantine which on 1st September arrived from Amsterdam to Hamburg
officially with sugar (but de facto with 1500,000lbs of lead) , evidently smuggling contraband for Russia.

 Отправлено: 19.05.12 22:01. Заголовок: AvM пишет: reported..

AvM пишет:

цитата:

reported about steamer Constantine which on 1st September arrived from Amsterdam to Hamburg officially with sugar (but de facto with 1500,000lbs of lead) , evidently smuggling contraband for Russia.

So, you think Ida=Constantine?

 Отправлено: 20.05.12 03:03. Заголовок: No! ..

No!

 Отправлено: 20.05.12 12:14. Заголовок: AvM пишет: No! Oops..

AvM пишет:

цитата:

No!

Oops. And what is your version?

 Отправлено: 20.05.12 15:47. Заголовок: Actually I am trying..

Actually I am trying to trace all sailing ships powned by the company.

 Отправлено: 23.05.12 13:36. Заголовок: :) http://sanctuari..

:)

http://sanctuaries.noaa.gov/maritime/expeditions/kadyak.html

 Отправлено: 23.05.12 14:22. Заголовок: http://www.archives...

http://www.archives.gov/research/guide-fed-records/groups/261.html#261.2

261.2 RECORDS OF THE RUSSIAN-AMERICAN COMPANY
1802, 1817-67
23 lin. ft.

History: The Russian-American Company was established by Czar Paul I, July 8, 1799, with de facto political authority and a monopoly of trade in Russia's North American possessions, principally Alaska. It was administered by a board of directors in St. Petersburg, with control of affairs in Alaska by appointed governors general. Alaska headquarters of the company was established at Sitka in 1799. Except for the period 1802-4, when an Indian revolt drove out the Russians, Sitka remained company headquarters until Alaska was sold to the United States in 1867. Under terms of a treaty concluded March 30, 1867 (15 Stat. 541), "any Government archives, papers, and documents relative to the territory and dominion aforesaid, which may now be existing there," were transferred to the United States.

Textual Records (92 vols.): Letters sent to the board of directors in St. Petersburg and to subordinate local settlements, relating to native tribes, the Hudson's Bay Company, fur prices, transportation, food and supplies, farming and animal husbandry, and vital statistics, 1818-67. Letters received from the board of directors, relating to fur, trade, fisheries, native tribes, boundaries, and the Russian Orthodox Church, April 18, 1802 (only), 1817-66. Logs of company ships on the voyages to California, Siberia, China, the Hawaiian Islands, and Russia, 1850-67. Journals of explorations of Lt. Lavrentii A. Zagoskin into the lower Yukon basin and the southwestern mainland of Alaska, 1842-44; and of Capt. N. Arkhimandritov on Kodiak Island, Norton Sound, and the Pribilof Islands, June-August 1860, July- August 1864.

Microfilm Publications: M11.

Finding Aids: Daniel T. Goggin, comp., "Preliminary Inventory of the Records of Former Russian Agencies: Records of the Russian- American Company," NC 40 (1963

 Отправлено: 23.05.12 14:32. Заголовок: http://www.archaeolo..

http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/kadyak/rusala.html

The selling of Alaska to the United States did not erase the history of Russian commercial interest in Alaska, and the wreck of Kad'yak is probably just one small part of underwater remains that the Russians have left behind. Kad'yak is the only Russian American Company shipwreck that has certainly been identified, though remains near St. Michael on the Yukon Delta may prove to be those of another Russian American ship, called Politkofsky. Fifty-two Russian wrecks in the North Pacific have also been documented, and of those, roughly 49 have been identified tentatively based on their locations. East Carolina University archaeologists are currently working to identify the sites that are accessible, and they hope to investigateother potential sites connected with the Russian American Company in the future.

 Отправлено: 25.05.12 09:54. Заголовок: Yes, sailing ships a..

Yes, sailing ships are very, very interesting too
By the way, AvM, may be you have an opportunity to have a look into "Hamburger Segelschiffe von 1795- 1945"?